Balancers

[Motley]

So how did my "purpose" come to me. As I've said already, neutral celestial fit for me. I had memories (the only detailed ones being of how I came to be incarnated) of appearing on different "planes" in various forms to converse with a number of individuals, not all of whom were human or even humanoid. I remembered a strong connection to a higher power and that I was something of an emissary for said higher power, travelling about to get things done for It; though the methods were my own, the task in general was given to me...meaning I was told that X was off, how I went about fixing X was up to me. I remember just knowing that balance was the most important thing in my existance. That it was sacred to myself and others of my "kind" and that preserving it was what we existed for.

I don't see anything in there that makes you sound like anything different than a regular dime a dozen angel.

[Archer]

. . . and I for one still have absolutely no conception of what "order" and "chaos" mean to you. You might as well be calling them giblbe and rudark.

*points to post at the top of the page*

I don't see anything in that post that helps explain it to me, just some very vague examples of things you would classify as ordered or chaosed.

Imagine I am a complete idiot - or a student sitting at your feet - or a child - or someone who doesn't speak English. And try to define "order" and "chaos" for me.

I don't get the point of posting assertions and guesses as to what might be right, or what "feels" right, or what is "remembered" to be right, unless there is also the serious discussion of the evidence.

Then you must not get why we talk about our personal beliefs as to what "we are" at all. All many people go on is what "feels right," and is "remembered".

If it's just a case of writing about what you "feel" and "remember", as opposed to an active search for the truth (whatever that might be) - then no, I absolutely do not see the point of any of this.

A bit clearer, but I’m still a bit confuddled on it. So your betrothals (platonic relationships really) is basically around as a friend to keep you from getting “stressed out”? (To humanize the concept) They served no purpose outside of how they related to you, not to belittle them, but they were companions to keep you able to function emotionally? Or am I still missing part of that?

Your assessment is correct. They're basically like living stress balls (to humanize the concept once more).

Jumping in here . . . why did you need a living stress ball anyway? Humans need social contact as a result of evolutionay psychology - simply put, humans cannot feed, reproduce, and shelter themselves without help from other humans. So humans have a very strong drive to seek out other humans and co-operate with them. With a non-biological, created entity like a Balancer, though - I don't see why there's a need for social contact at all. So why did you need companions?

I got the impression that it was the emotion of love that was detrimental to your neutrality, not so much any “action” based upon it, and if that’s the case, wouldn’t the same be true for anger?

It is the actions that stem from emotions that are the issue. The kind of love I reference is the kind that translates into action. It is nigh impossible to feel for someone so deeply and yet ignore them entirely.

I disagree. It is certainly very difficult to "love" someone in a completely all-consuming way (though I would argue that's more like limerance than love) and not act on it; but humans can and do fairly often. Reams of poetry have been written on just that topic.

From a less human perspective, the Judeo-Christian God is depicted as having absolute, complete, unconditional love for absolutely all beings . . . but does not act on that love, rather allows those beings to go and do what they choose to do, even if it's very bad for them. (I say "less human" rather than "not human" because J-C myths are myths written by humans and so, of course, have a human perspective.) It's interesting that a lot of humans can't comprehend that - believing that it's impossible for a loving God to allow suffering, for example. But plenty of humans can indeed understand it.

Given that a Balancer flipping out would be catastrophic for the universe, I don't see why a Balancer would be compelled to act on love, even if that Balancer felt love. "Hmmm, I love this person and want to be with them. But if I do, the universe will blow up. And they'll be dead and I'll be fired and we won't be together anyway. I call BS on that - I love that person enough to stay away and do my duty."

[Ges]

I mean this in general, not because you’re you, but why does it make a difference? Many people, high and low energy don’t get energetically attacked, it doesn’t mean they are special, it just means they haven’t attracted the wrong attention of the wrong people to a point where they consider them worth the effort of attacking.

It doesn't. Somewhere (with version 1 or 2 of this article) someone asked for "evidence" or "theories" explaining how I "know" I have a crap ton of energy at my disposal.

So it's a vestigal remain from a draft of having more context before? That at least makes some sense for its presence, but as dealth with, it's not really tied into not being attacked.

We were created as complete beings, with the complete ability to "feel" because our judgements cannot be black or white, they are shades of grey. If you excise certain emotions, then that ability to judge "fairly" becomes rather compromised. We aren't just programmed to do X, we are told what needs doing and the method is up to us.

*nods* I'm just hit by the humanocentrism of "complete", as how your talking assumes everything can feel human emotions, or that human emotions are all there are. Where as I feel it is just as plausible that there are huge sets of emotions humans don't have access to, because we don't have the neurochemical make up for them.

With this, I now at least get your logic, though I can't support it (stating my view, not that either of us actually expect you need my support in order to maintain a belief)

I mean, those of us who have been in the community for a while have seen you describe yourself as an Angel/Phoenix, and Angel/Hawk, and an Angel/Tiger, a Polymorphic Angel that helps balance all dualities and now you’re a Polymorphic Angel thing, who protects the universe from imploding due to too much Chaos or Order (and some of those changes have been in the last year).

Well you haven't seen me describe myself as an angel/hawk (ever, I never considered myself avian...that's Motley)[/quote]

If I felt like calling shenanigans here, I would, cause I'm fairly sure that I double checked your intro post before I said that, and confirmed it, and now when I checked again, it was lacking, but everything else (and all the follow ups) was familiar. But that sounds to conspiratorial to believe you'd trace back, edit it, just to remove evidence. Even so, one point of several.

Also, in my double check on here, I realize some of that information did come from other forums (didn't realize it at the time), which I feel is in part unfair, but doesn't invalidate the points. But now that it's said.

or an angel/phoenix. Phoenix I did consider briefly briefly, but not a combination of the two. I considered phoenix because of my memory of how my previous existance "ended," and it was pretty quickly discarded.

Actually you're correct, I came across

I'm something of an angel with phoenix tendencies

Which reading now, I can see being intrepreted as a combination, or as relating a set of traits, but not so much as an identity.

Angel/tiger was a theory because of my shifts, but for the most part I thought they were cameo for a long time and was hesitant to call tiger a kintype. The latter two are essentially the same, just labelled differently. All dualities was narrowed down to chaos vs. order.

Similar, but not so much the same. To go back to my examples, Good and Evil, Light and Dark, Ham and Mayo, are not the same as Chaos and Order, so while it's a narrowing down, it is a change.

My point was not asking you to defend the idenitities or the changes, but more that you've changed your understanding and beliefs a lot in nine years (even in one, which is your first blip to my radar), so what makes you think your current view is more valid than Angel/Tiger?

Again, it doesn't matter if your identity changes with reason, it happens to everyone, but I just feel it's troublesome to "lock" yourself in too soon, especially with the shifting nature of identity (which can be a polymorph joke too I guess)

If you'll notice, angel has always been something I felt was "right". ...<Snip> mainly meditation on other snippets of memory, an inner duality made itself known to me. For a while I thought I was some kind of angel-demon hybrid. Two beings who are usually labelled ordered and chaotic (albeit, not always correctly).

Okay, that's actually a good start, but just thinking/feeling something doesn't make it so. Have you had any form of confirmation to these beliefs?

Putting all of this together I came to the polymorph conclusion.

This is a more general toss out to this type of reaction. But many people have a few blips that don't match their beliefs about themselves (which is totally their fault for believing in their self, but that's another issue), so what makes you think they are are all aspects, not just quirks in your mental/energetic makeup? Cryptoamnesia, childhood imprints, etc.?

I have also met two people who share many of my memories.

*nods* This is more what I mean about confirmation. Now lack of confirmation doesn't invalidity (nor does confirmation validate), but it is a starting point. I'm curious how the sharing of memories came up, and how sterily it was handled.

Wow...that turned into a book.

No worries, it was the most illuminating entry you've made thus far in my opinion.

[Seraphyna]

Imagine I am a complete idiot - or a student sitting at your feet - or a child - or someone who doesn't speak English. And try to define "order" and "chaos" for me.

I see chaos as randomness, disorder and order as having a pattern and near predictability to it.

To go further, chaos is that which lacks any predictability, has no pattern to it, is random. Order is that which is patterned and is predictable. Chaos is more volatile while order is more stable.

Jumping in here . . . why did you need a living stress ball anyway? Humans need social contact as a result of evolutionay psychology - simply put, humans cannot feed, reproduce, and shelter themselves without help from other humans. So humans have a very strong drive to seek out other humans and co-operate with them. With a non-biological, created entity like a Balancer, though - I don't see why there's a need for social contact at all. So why did you need companions?

We were created as complete beings, with the complete ability to "feel" because our judgements cannot be black or white, they are shades of grey. If you excise certain emotions, then that ability to judge "fairly" becomes rather compromised. We aren't just programmed to do X, we are told what needs doing and the method is up to us.

That explains why we have emotions and the ability to feel at all. Companions are there for us so that said emotions can be expressed in a healthy fashion and so that their expression is either avoided (by that I mean these are certain beings we "come home to" so that there's a reduced chance of coming across another who we would feel X way towards). We are given certain faculties and as such are given a means of controlling them in another being.

If I felt like calling shenanigans here, I would, cause I'm fairly sure that I double checked your intro post before I said that, and confirmed it, and now when I checked again, it was lacking, but everything else (and all the follow ups) was familiar. But that sounds to conspiratorial to believe you'd trace back, edit it, just to remove evidence. Even so, one point of several.

Also, in my double check on here, I realize some of that information did come from other forums (didn't realize it at the time), which I feel is in part unfair, but doesn't invalidate the points. But now that it's said.

Well I'm pretty sure edited posts on most forums have a date of last edit on them...and I know I've never identified as a hawk so you can either take my word for it or not...either way *I* know what I've identified as so it doesn't matter if you want to think differently. As for information coming from other places, I don't mind, but other people might end up highly confused. Though a good deal of people here also belong to other forums.

My point was not asking you to defend the idenitities or the changes, but more that you've changed your understanding and beliefs a lot in nine years (even in one, which is your first blip to my radar), so what makes you think your current view is more valid than Angel/Tiger?

Well I explained all of my conclusions...but I suppose I'll answer this again anyway. There are reasons I tweaked my self identity and abandoned certain things and those reasons I have already given. I think my current view is more valid for one because it's the first thing that has completely "fit". It fits with my memories and those of a couple of other people. I have never incarnated before and my memories and feelings confirm this. That's the reason I know I'm not tiger, or anything else for that matter. Why I may have appeared physical I have never before been physical.

Okay, that's actually a good start, but just thinking/feeling something doesn't make it so. Have you had any form of confirmation to these beliefs?

None of us will have definitive proof until we die. Until then we might have shared memories with others and really convince ourselves...but that's confirmation only on a personal level and could be seen as nothing to anyone else. So no one has to believe me, but that won't change what I believe and why. That being said, I have spent quite some time not only analyzing my beliefs and memories but rejecting them only to have them resurface again and again. I have meditated on them and explored them, and after having many details comfirmed by others.

This is a more general toss out to this type of reaction. But many people have a few blips that don't match their beliefs about themselves (which is totally their fault for believing in their self, but that's another issue), so what makes you think they are are all aspects, not just quirks in your mental/energetic makeup? Cryptoamnesia, childhood imprints, etc.?

Well, as I've said, I don't recall having ever been physical before and do have limited memories of myself as these other beings. Put them together and it's clear I have never lived as them, so to speak, and yet they are still very close to me. I do not believe they're just childhood imprints because of my memories and I don't believe they are just quirks because my personality does not reflect them. From what I remember of "gargoyles" and mermaids and from what I know about tigers, I share very few (if any) personality traits with them. My energetic makeup would include imprints of them had I ever incarnated as such, since that has never been, it does not include said imprints. My memories show me that I am a being of energy and as such can take whatever form pleases me. These are forms that I used most, that I am most connected to. They are a part of me in that respect, integral to myself, but at the same time I am not them, I understand them and can appear as they are, but we are not one and the same.

*nods* This is more what I mean about confirmation. Now lack of confirmation doesn't invalidity (nor does confirmation validate), but it is a starting point. I'm curious how the sharing of memories came up, and how sterily it was handled.

In many cases I simply read people's posts on forums that matched memories of places that I have. With respect to people who have shared my memories, they have told me what they remember of me at the mention of my name alone. I told them nothing else. In some cases they had more detailed memories of certain things than I did at the time.

[Miniar]

I see chaos as randomness, disorder and order as having a pattern and near predictability to it.

To go further, chaos is that which lacks any predictability, has no pattern to it, is random. Order is that which is patterned and is predictable. Chaos is more volatile while order is more stable.

The thing with this is that practically everything that exists has some structure, some order, some pattern of being. Even the pattern in which the raindrops fall is structured. There's little, if anything at all, that exists, that "is" chaotic. So where does this balance come in? If the overwhelming majority of everything follows a patter, a structure, adheres to causality, then where's the chaos?

[Archer]

To go further, chaos is that which lacks any predictability, has no pattern to it, is random. Order is that which is patterned and is predictable. Chaos is more volatile while order is more stable.

Now I'm even more confused, because everything you have listed as an example of chaos is in fact very predictable.

Wars are predictable - both in terms of how they start, and in terms of the details of what happens during.

A guy who hates his job and is very stressed and one day goes postal is also very predictable - most people don't predict such events, but to people who study behaviour the writing is on the wall and obvious.

I think you mentioned "insanity" as an example of something chaotic as well. Insanity is a very general term, but I personally know several schizophrenics and two sociopaths, and their behaviour very definitely has patterns and is not random at all. With sociopaths in particular, their eventual outcome is usually fairly obvious (ie: predictable, non-random) from a young age, and with schizophrenia, it's likely to be caused by organic problems in the brain and as such no more random or unpredictable than a broken bone.

Jumping in here . . . why did you need a living stress ball anyway? Humans need social contact as a result of evolutionay psychology - simply put, humans cannot feed, reproduce, and shelter themselves without help from other humans. So humans have a very strong drive to seek out other humans and co-operate with them. With a non-biological, created entity like a Balancer, though - I don't see why there's a need for social contact at all. So why did you need companions?

That explains why we have emotions and the ability to feel at all. Companions are there for us so that said emotions can be expressed in a healthy fashion and so that their expression is either avoided (by that I mean these are certain beings we "come home to" so that there's a reduced chance of coming across another who we would feel X way towards). We are given certain faculties and as such are given a means of controlling them in another being.

That's a huge leap.

The need for companionship that humans have is a product of human biology and evolution. You, completely non-human beings, need companionship to express emotions . . . why? Why would non-physical beings with a completely different makeup and origin from humans have the need to express emotion in such a human way?

Or do you believe that human needs (like friendship, love, understanding, validation, communication, etc) are universal and all beings share them?

In many cases I simply read people's posts on forums that matched memories of places that I have. With respect to people who have shared my memories, they have told me what they remember of me at the mention of my name alone.

As an energetic being, why did you even have a name? If the name was "Seraphyna", why did you have a name composed of the kinds of soundwaves that humans can produce?

The idea of "a sound" being symbolic for "personal identity" is not universal; it isn't even universal to all humans (profoundly deaf people, for example). So when you talk of people recognising your name, is your name something other than the Seraphyna-sound-symbol, or was that sound-symbol representative of your identity . . . and if so, why?

[Seraphyna]

Or do you believe that human needs (like friendship, love, understanding, validation, communication, etc) are universal and all beings share them?

I do believe that all beings share them on some level unless created devoid of them. What I mean by that is that some beings are created without the need for them, so unless that's the case I do believe that all beings share those "needs" on some level.

As an energetic being, why did you even have a name? If the name was "Seraphyna", why did you have a name composed of the kinds of soundwaves that humans can produce?

Seraphyna is my name in human. Meaning the version of my name that can be produced by human vocal cords and sound. As I've said, we all (meaning balancers) shared a collective consciousness so we have names to distinguish each other. However, our "language" is more empathic and made up of vibrations and not actual spoken sounds (like words) or visual symbols. As for communicating with beings who do rely on sound for communication, we communicated more by telepathy projecting our thoughts so that they were understood as a voice inside another being's head so to speak. We have names so we know who's doing what and if we're "talking" to a specific individual that is clearly understood. That way we also know what the Source/All/Creator/Etc. is saying to each of us or if It is talking to all of us as a collective.

[Seraphyna]

I'd like to request that if you guys want to talk about personal definitions for chaos and order that you create a topic for said discussion. I think it's definitely something that would ge some great replies, but I feel that it's getting off topic on this thread. Asking about my personal definitions is fine, but we're now getting into the definitions of others.

Thanks

[Deros]

*deleted because I realized how petty I sounded*

[House Hesson]

I'd like to request that if you guys want to talk about personal definitions for chaos and order that you create a topic for said discussion. I think it's definitely something that would ge some great replies, but I feel that it's getting off topic on this thread. Asking about my personal definitions is fine, but we're now getting into the definitions of others.

Thanks

Topic split. If anyone is interested in discussing that subject, please refer to the "Defining order and chaos" thread. I put it in Off-Topic because I wasn't really sure where else was appropriate, even though it does relate to a big part of how some kintypes define themselves.

-Val